This is in response to an ex-Jehovah's Witnesses attempt to prove fallacy in wording used in the book published by the Watchtower Society of Jehovah's Witnesses called:"Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand.
Ex Jehovah's Witness Wrote:
The WT teaches the resurrection of the "anointed" started in 1918. The WT cult even pins down the very year that supposedly happened.
ArmedWithTruth Wrote:
You're trying to evade the subject since you CAN'T show from the Bible that this isn't true. Prove it, or shut up ;-)
Ex Jehovah's Witness Wrote:
LOL...the response of a defeated JW...let me show you from the Bible how it couldn't have happened in 1918. 1Th 4:15-17 states that "the dead in Christ" and "we the living", both groups, will be "caught away" "at the same time together" according to the original Greek in The Kingdom Interlinear See 1Th 4:17, Ref. Bi., footnote).Therefore, if the "dead in Christ" were resurrected in 1918, there would be no "we the living" still walking on earth today.
ArmedWithTruth Wrote:
I thank Jehovah for providing the following answers to your attack on both him and his people.
After some researching into this much deeper I see that you have carefully presented the wording out of context. Since web viewers in most cases do not have the book in question, it is easy to make something look bad when the viewer cannot read the text before and after your quote from the book.
Let's look at this in great depth.
Note: I will use my King James translation.
You quoted 1st. Thessalonians 4:15-17 which says,
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now, let's compare the above verses to: 1st. Corinthians 15: 21 - 25, which says,
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Now Ex-Jehovah's Witness You Said,
""the dead in Christ" and "we the living", both groups, will be "caught away" "at the same time together"
Well, just look at 1st. Cor. 15: 22, and 23 above:
Verse 22 shows that all shall be made alive (or resurrected) by Christ, but notice what verse 23 says - But every man in his own order. In other words not all will be resurrected in the same order, but according to how God purposes or plans.
Verse 23 also goes on to state what this order of resurrection will be: "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."
Now who are the firstfruits, and those who are Christ's mentioned in verse 23 above?
Matthew 24: 31 tells us that these are the "elect" aka chosen ones, aka 144 thousand who had already died and were sleeping (or waiting) in death, and those who will die during the time of Christ's ruling as King in heaven during the last days after Satan is cast down to the earth (see Rev. 12: 9)
Matthew 24: 31 - And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(see also elect mentioned (Matt. 24: 22, Romans 8: 28-33, Rev. 14: 1, 3)
Now the question is what does it mean by his coming? Does this mean a literal coming to earth?, or coming to power as King in Heaven?
1st. Cor. 15 Verse 25 says that he (Jesus) must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet, which helps to establish that Jesus had to have come to rule as king in Heaven when he (Jesus) experienced his first battle victory against Satan (aka the dragon) mentioned at:
Revelation 12: 7 - 10 which says,
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now IS COME salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the POWER of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Now, how do I know that this happened sometime after Jesus died on earth, and was resurrected and returned to Heaven?
Just after the above mentioned verses if you look one more verse beyond that at Revelation 12: 11, you will see that they (Jesus and his angels) overcame Satan, and his angels by Jesus sacraficial blood - "[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Matthew 16: 19 tells us what Jesus did when he initially ascended into heaven after his resurrection.
"So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."
Why did Jesus sit at the right hand of his Father Jehovah at that point?
Mark 12: 36 talks of the prophecy vision by David which says tells us why Jesus sat at the right hand of his Father "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
When did Jesus' enemies become his footstool?
Answer: After the war in heaven between Jesus and his angels, and Satan and his angels.
Rev. 12: 9 - "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."
Rev. 12: 12 says - "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Matthew 14: 61, and 62 while on earth, Jesus says, "[61] But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?[62] And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
The verses above clearly point out that in the case of 1st. Thes. 4: 16 when the word "coming" is used it refers to - a coming to power. In this case heavenly power as King. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Matthew 24: 30, 31 says,
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
A bit further down in Matthew 24 you will see that Jesus himself compares his "coming" or COMING TO POWER to the days of Noah and his ark.
HOW SO?
Matt. 24: verse 35 says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Well since Ecclesiastes 1: 4 says "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. We can conclude that the ball in space called earth will not pass away, perish, or be destroyed, therefore as in Noah's day, when the flood finally came, the destruction or passing away pertained not to the earth, but to its inhabitants that did not accept Jehovah's righteous law, nor turn away from their bad ways after ample time and warning had been given.
Matt. 24: 36 says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Just like in the days of Noah before the flood came, Noah new the flood would come because he was told by God himself, however, God did not tell him exactly when the flood or end of all unrighteousness would come during those days. Noah simply finished his tasks and waited.
How do we know from the bible when the "end" in our time is near?
If we can't know the day or hour how can we be prepared?
Jesus tells us when we will know that he has come to power in heaven thus ruling with his enemies as his footstool at:
Matthew 24: 3 - 14,
[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
[4] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
[5] For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[6] And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[8] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
[12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN SHALL THE END COME.
Matthew 24: 38, and 39 says,
[38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Notice that the people were carrying on with everyday life, as if there was nothing to concern themselves with beyond their own selfish desires? Well, there's certainly nothing wrong with eating, drinking, and getting married. What people failed to do however was heed the warning that had been given to them to turn away from the things in their lives that were displeasing to God. Today people take the same approach with the same attitude.
Conclusion based on scriptural proof?
The days of Christ's coming in Kingdom power while his enemies are (on earth) as his footstool are also referred to as the "last days" in scripture.
See: 2nd. Timothy 3: 1 - 7
See: Hebrews 1: 2
See: 2nd. Peter 3: 3 - 6
The end of the "last days" is not to be confused with the coming of Christ to power in heaven. The end is a very different event otherwise known as "the great day"(Rev. 6: 16, 17, Rev. 16: 14) when Jesus leads his angels in the final battle to remove all earthly things apposing justice, righteousness, and truth according to Jehovah God from the face of the earth.
See Jude 1: 11 - 16
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. [12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; [13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, [15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. [16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Since we are told according to scripture that we can identify the sign of the Son of man (Jesus) in the sky (or his coming to power in the heavens) based on the signs of the times mentioned at Matthew 24: 3 - 14 - It can be concluded that a location in time can be marked as the beginning of that time, aka the days of Christ's heavenly rulership, and with further examination of the scriptures arrive at an educated conclusion as to when certain events that were to follow happened.
Now I Say To You Ex Jehovah's Witness:
You said "All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918" (Revelation Climax book, p. 103, parr. 12)."
You said: All the evidence"?
Answer: Yes, all evidence does point to the year 1918 it's called an educated conclusion based on the scriptures of which there is nothing wrong in doing so. That's why we have the Bible to use.
You said:
What evidence?
Answer: The evidence in the Bible as mentioned above.
You said:
Did they see it happen?
Answer: I can asnwer this question from the Bible at 2nd. Peter 3: 3 - 5.
You said:
Someone told them?
Answer: Yes Jehovah God told them in his written word.
Here's a section from the book in question that you carefully left out:
Note I will insert verse for you to look up for certain sections.
"All the evidence indicates that this heavenly resurrection began in 1918, after Jesus, enthronement in 1914 and his riding forth to start his kingly conquest by cleansing the heavens of Satan and his demons (see Matthew 24: 3 - 12, Rev. 6: 1 - 11)
Yet, those resurrected annointed ones are told that they must "rest a little while longer, until the number . . . also of their fellow slaves" is filled. (Rev. 6: 9 - 11)
