Jan 2, 2008

OF WHOSE GLORY DID ISAIAH PROPHESY?

Has Man Seen God - And Lived?

An Anonymous Youtube User Wrote:
Please read, even in the NWT, Isaiah 6:1 and compare to John 12:41 (and please read in context), Colossians 2:8-9, Read Isaiah 43:10 especially last part of this verse and compare to Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1, Deut.10:17 and compare to Rev. 17:14.

ArmedWithTruth Replies:
Below are the verses you wanted us “ Jehovah's witnesses” to look up.

Note I will use the KJV as it is most widely accepted.
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Isaiah 6: 1 says,
“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.”
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John 12: 41
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
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Colossians 2: 8,9 says,
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.[9] For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
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Isaiah 43: 10 (especially the last part you said,)
Says, “[10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”
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Compared to:
Isaiah 9: 6 which says,
[6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
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John 1: 1 says,
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
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Deuteronomy 10: 17 says,
[17] For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:”
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Revelation 17: 14 says,
[14] These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
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The Big Question Here Is – Does The Bible Contradict Itself?


There are only two possible answers. Yes or No.

Matthew 5: 37 says,
“Just let your word Yes, mean Yes, your No, No, for what is in excess of these is from the wicked one.”

HERE WE GO

ISAIAH 6: 1 AND JOHN 12: 41

I’m guessing that the point YOUTUBE USER is trying to make about ISAIAH 6: 1 is - yes, indeed - man has seen God with his own eyes, and lived to talk about it on top of that.


The second point I'm guessing that YOUTUBE USER is trying to make in regard to JOHN 12: 41 is that Isaiah is speaking of God. Since I'm guessing YOUTUBE USER believes Jesus is literally God, then my assumption is probably correct. However we will soon see if Isaiah is speaking of Jehovah God, or a separate, mighty servant of God, Jesus the Son of God.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ACCUSE GOD OF – THAT IS, OF BEING A LIAR.

at Exodus 33:20 God said to Moses: “You cannot see My face; for no man can see Me and live.”

On the other hand,
Genesis 32:30 records Jacob as saying: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

Now, in the above verses (Exodus 33: 20 & Genesis 32: 30) it appears as if Jacob is proving God’s own words to Moses at Exodus 33: 20 –
to be a lie.

YIKERS! That is a very serious situation if true.

Titus 1: 2 says that GOD CANNOT LIE - “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”

SO WHAT GIVES?????

Let’s consider the situations in the Bible where individuals referred to seeing God.

In Jacob’s case at Genesis 32: 30 it says (KJV) “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”

Just a little before Jacob says this, he experiences the following with the same being of which he is never told the name, but he refers to this individual as “a man

Genesis 32: 24,25, says,
[24] And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [25] And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.


Then in verse 29 we are told that Jacob never did get the name of the man he wrestled with – “And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.”

Remember this part about the name not being given to him as you read further below.

The fact that Jacob did not get the name or the actual identity of this “man” he wrestled with revealed to him - is reason to conclude that Jacob wrestled with “The Angel Of The LORD” or “an Angel of The Lord” that is mentioned SEVENTY FOUR times in the Bible. This Angel of the LORD often appeared to God’s people to represent God, and therefore God also spoke through such an angel.


For a perfect example of this - read Judges 6: 11 – 16, where it clearly states that the angel of the LORD appears to Joash, and then later in verse 16 it says, “And the LORD said unto him”, - - - - - Joash was talking to God, but through the presence or representation of God provided by the Angel of the LORD, , , , , therefore it can be said that Joash was looking at, and speaking with God indirectly.

Other times individuals spoke of seeing God, when what they really saw was a representation of God but not God himself are as follows:

Exodus 3: 2 – Moses is mentioned as “seeing” God in a burning bush, however again it is worded as such,
“[2] And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.”


Did Moses See God?
Answer No. He saw an image that he, as a human could comprehend, or understand. The bush was a representation of God—an occasion where something took God’s place.

The same applies to Job when God appeared to him in a whirlwind at Job 38: 1

What about in Judges 13: 22, which says,
“And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.”

Did Manoah and his wife see God?
NO.
Verse 18 in the same book answers this question when Manoah asked for the name of who was speaking to him.
Judges 13: 18 says this happened when Manoah asked the name of the Angel of the Lord, “And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?”

Compare to Genesis 32: 29 - Where Jacob never did get the name of the man he wrestled with.
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Well, the question now is , , , , , DOES GOD’S OWN WORD (THE BIBLE) LIE?

SINCE GOD CANNOT LIE (Titus 1: 2), and God himself said that no man can see his face and live (Exodus 33:20), we must let our Yes, mean Yes, and agree that we believe God when he says something. Otherwise we are calling God a liar ourselves.

THAT’S A BIG NO NO.

It is now safe to conclude, , , that we’ve established that each time a human is said to have seen God in the Bible, what they really have seen, is a representation, or representative of God, not the literal face of God, or in God’s own words, they would die.

Just as the “angel of the LORD” represented God and was the voice through which God spoke to people –

JESUS WAS/IS ALSO A VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF HIS FATHER JEHOVAH GOD.

How do I know?

The Bible says so at John 1: 18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

WHO DECLARED GOD?

JESUS - HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON DID, THAT’S WHO.

Now Back To The Verses YOUTUBE USER told us (Jehovah's witnesses) to look up.

Isaiah 6: 1 says,
“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.”


In light of what was just discussed, and in light of God’s own words, that no man can see him and live, we must conclude that:

1. That God is not a liar, and
2. That what was being seen here in a vision was a representation of God on a throne.}
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NOW LET'S MOVE ON:

John 12: 41
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Remember YOUTUBE USER, you said that you wanted us (Jehovah's witnesses) to read
all in context.

So Be It.

QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER
1. Who was Isaiah speaking of after seeing his glory?
2. Was Isaiah speaking of God himself, or of another Servant of God?

If you read the full chapter IN CONTEXT, you will read that Jesus was sitting with others at a feast that was thrown after Lazarus was raised from the dead. Certain people were asking to see Jesus because of what they had heard about him and Lazarus, and other miracles.

Philip, and Andrew tell Jesus that certain people were looking for him.

Jesus assures them that he is soon to be glorified. In other words, don’t worry - they’ll know who I am in just a moment.

John 12: 23 says, “And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.”

Jesus went on to say,
John 12: 27 - 30
[27] Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.[28] Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. [29] The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. [30] Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

After this happened, people nearby either heard it and new it was a message from above (thus recieving confirmation from Jehovah that Jesus was the promised Messiah), or they did not hear it, and wrote it off as thunder. Not only was Jehovah God’s name being glorified at that very moment in verse 28, but also, Jesus was being identified to those who heard - as the “Christ” the promised Messiah.

Because of this - some questioned Jesus as follows,
John 12: 34 says,
[34] The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever (see Prov. 8: 22 - 31) and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?”

The people are asking WHO IS THIS SON OF MAN?

The answer to this question lies in the following verse:

John 12: 38 says,
“That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath THE ARM OF THE LORD been revealed?”

The Son Of Man (Jesus) is not God himself, but the prophesied ultimate representation of God in this case referred to as
THE ARM OF THE LORD - (LORD meaning Jehovah).

Compare John 12: 38 to:

Isaiah 53: 1 – 12
speaks of Jesus (JEHOVAH’S ARM) in the following verses.
[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

CONCLUSION IN REGARD TO
Isaiah 6: 1 compared to John 12: 41

There is no comparison. Isaiah 6: 1 is speaking of what has been seen in a vision as a representation of God (Jehovah) on his throne, not Jesus.

John 12: 41 - speaks of Isaiah seeing his glory, who’s glory did he see? He saw the ARM OF GOD, also known to us as Jesus, the promised Messiah, the Son of man.

Isaiah 51: 9 speaks of THE ARM OF THE LORD as the one who cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon.
“[9] Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?”

Note: Rahab is also the name of a sea-demon and, connected with this, a poetical or symbolic name applied to Egypt in Psalm 87:4, Psalm 89:10 and Isaiah 51:9, signifying "the proud one." - - thus further drawing the conclusion that in these cases, JESUS, or the ARM OF JEHOVAH, was being spoken of in prophetic poem.


Isaiah 52: 10 says,
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

THE ARM OF THE LORD (aka Jesus) IS GOD’S HOLY SERVANT
Isaiah 52: 13 – 15 says,
13: Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14: As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15: So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

YOUTUBE USER ASKED US “JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES” TO CONSIDER
COLOSSIANS 2: 8, 9 & ISAIAH 43: 10


Colossians 2: 8,9 says,
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. [9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

What is this fullness?

JESUS FULLY MIRRORS OR REPRESENTS Jehovah God his Father.

Colossians 1: 15 says,
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The fullness of Authority in the order of the Godhead, of which nothing is above him except Jehovah his Father.


1st. Corinthians 11: 3 confirms, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Colossians 1: 18, 19 says,
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;

YOUTUBE USER asked Jehovah's witnesses to consider Isaiah 43: 10 (especially the last part) which says, “[10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.”

In consideration of the overall "Big Picture" as seen in the entire Bible, Isaiah 43: 10 must be referring to the term GOD in the ultimate sense.

JEHOVAH IS THE GOD OF gods! Deuteronomy 10: 17

HOW CAN JEHOVAH BE THE GOD OF gods, IF THERE ARE NO OTHER gods TO BE THE GOD OF?


SIMPLE EXPLANATION:
REMEMBER GOD SPEAKING TO PEOPLE IN THE PAST THROUGH PROPHETS, AND ANGELS WHO REPRESENTED HIM, AS HIS SERVANTS?

GOD USES JESUS IN THE SAME WAY – (AS HIS ARM, HIS MESSENGER), his right hand man.

Hebrews 1: 1 – 4 explains this and so much more.

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


So, Jesus is not God himself, but as the perfect representative of his Father God (Jehovah), Jesus is powerful, mighty, and god-like in every sense of the word, or Word, as Jesus is referred the Word which further explains how Jesus is a complete, and full representative of Jehovah God in all things.

Even Satan is god-like, and is called a god - 2nd. Cor. 4: 4 (Satan possesses god-like supernatural powers) Does this mean that Satan is not a god? He certainly posseses his own powers as his evil deeds to not come from God, , , , , therefore Satan is a god in the sense that he possesses supernatural powers of which he can use in practicing his own free will. The story of Job proves this point (Job 2: and so on)
2nd. Cor. 4: 4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Satan however, is not immortal as he will be destroyed someday (Rev. 20: 10)

Jesus however was granted immortality and exhaulted by his Father Jehovah, after Jesus fullfulled his role as the Messiah, and was resurrected back up to heaven.
Hebrews 1: 4 says,
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Philippians 2: 9 says,
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
1st. Timothy 6: 16 says,
Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Romans 6: 9 says,
Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more.”
Indeed, contrasting the resurrected Jesus with earthly rulers, Paul describes him as the only one among them having immortality. Jesus will remain “alive forever.” His life is “indestructible.”— Hebrews 7:15-17, 23-25; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

NOW IN REGARD TO THE REMAINING VERSES YOUTUBE USER ASKED JEHOVHA'S WITNESSES TO LOOK UP:

Isaiah 9: 6
John 1: 1
Deuteronomy 10: 17
Revelation 17: 14


It is safe to say that much of what has been typed above answers the challenge that has been posed with these above verses - that is whether or not Jesus is God, and God is Jesus.

However in brief if I may:
Isaiah 9: 6 would suggest that since this is talking about Jesus, it equals that Jesus is God, when the verse is compared to:
Deuteronomy 10: 17 which says,[17] For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:”

(note: includes explanation of Revelation 17: 14 as well)

Deuteronomy 10: 17 is indeed talking about Jehovah God, and includes the words "God of gods".

In contrast,
Isaiah 9: 6 - DOES NOT include the words "God of gods".

In fact, the words "God of gods" CANNOT BE FOUND anywhere in the New Testament or (Greek scriptures).

Revelation 17: 14 - is Talking about Jesus (the Son of God), but DOES NOT include the words "God of gods" in it.

Nor are the words "God of gods" found in the following verses pertaining to Jesus in the New testament:
1st. Tim. 6: 15
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev. 19: 16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Since we've established that Jesus is the ARM OF THE LORD (the right hand man of God), as the separate, but perfect representative of his Father, and has all things put under him, , , , the following should be considered,

1st. Corinthians 15: 28 says,
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Now in regard to John 1: 1 says,
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Please compare to Proverbs 8: 22 - 31 in it's entirety.

In the beginning was the Word
Compare to: Proverbs 8: 22 which says,
The LORD possessed me(meaning Jesus) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old."

and the Word was with God
Compare to: Proverbs 8: 27, and 30
(27) When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
(30) Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

NOW COMPARE PROVERBS 8: 22, and 24 with (begotten) mentioned at John 3: 16, and at John 1: 14.
begotten means: To cause to exist or occur; produce:
Prov. 8: 22 The LORD possessed me(Jesus) in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Jesus was truly the Word, but was the word literally God?

According to all Biblical evidence, no, but the Word (or God's Son Jesus), is the perfect personification of his Father Jehovah, so much so, that he abides in an unapproachable light that only he can share with his Father Jehovah God, therefore, to us human beings he is truly the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1: 15) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

1st. Timothy 6: 13: 16 says,
13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

In Closing, We Must Answer The Question Once And For All - DOES THE BIBLE CONTRADICT ITSELF?
Most claiming to be Christian will quickly answer “NO” without flinching.
In contrast however many of these same people, with their own misunderstanding of the “Big Picture”, combined with the false teachings they’ve adopted - say otherwise without realizing it in most cases.

The false doctrines many proclaimed Christians accept, not only make the Bible appear to be a big book of contradictions and lies, but also give off the appearance that God is not only fickle, but also as the Devil claims, a big liar.

Nothing has helped the Devil in his quest to convince mankind that God is a liar - more than the false teachings, and doctrines of man.

In the Bible Jehovah God makes this plea to man at Proverbs 27: 11 “Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him(Satan) that is taunting me.”